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Thread: Dog fighting anyone?

  1. #1
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    Dog fighting anyone?

    I designed these back in 2007 before I ever even thought about FPV. They worked pretty well. HappyKillmore and I used to dog fight POV all the time with them. We once had SaulOhio, MTXMUGEN and myself all dog fighting at once. It was a blast

    I am trying to find the time to get my PIC programmer up and working so I can do this via IC rather than the old fashioned analog way.

    Here's how it works: The transistor circuit on the upper right is optional. It is the motor shutdown circuit if you wish to have the thing shut off the motor when firing. This keeps someone from simly laying on the trigger the whole flight.

    The sonic combat module has a 1's hot coded bit that will send my circuit a signal to shut down the motor. The time is adjustable via potentiometer. I never did integrate a dual shut down with this that would shut down the motor when firing and when hit. Perhaps a simple RTL logic circuit would work? The 3rd wire is the coded bit. I believe it would need to be inverted and sent to the motor driver circuit to shut it down.

    It has been quite some time since I even looked at this, but now with FPV, this seems to be very fun. The UA7810 is probably unnecessary. I forget why I put it in there...


    EDIT: as of 10/29/17 there are 4 functional combat planes in my home. This is what combat looks like:



    -Alex
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    Last edited by IBCrazy; 29th October 2017 at 10:42 AM.
    If it is broken, fix it. if it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.

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  2. #2
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    Future ideas

    I am also considering a night time infrared type of combat module. There are hundres of junk TV's with perfectly useable remote controls and receiveing electronics. All I'd need to do is rip the receiving system out of the TV and fit it with a few more IR sensors. Then use the remote circuitry and fit it with a more powerful LED inside a small copper tube (for directional control) and activate it with a servo. The TV circuit board already has IR noise filtering. I would use the output code to drive an RTL inverter on the ESC to kill the motor when hit.

    -Alex
    If it is broken, fix it. if it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.

    [url]videoaerialsystems.com[/url] - Performance video piloting

  3. #3
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    Wooooooow, very cool Alex. Very very cool. I was wondering when someone was going to build one of these for the public.
    [COLOR=red]FPV is not a crime![/COLOR]

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  4. #4
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    IR night fighting module designed!

    Ok, I took some time and pulled what I knew about IR systems in TV sets and such. I forgot they all operate on 38KHz and there are chips with built in filtering. This makes things easy. Of course, you could do a team battle too and use 56KHz and 38KHz together and not worry about friendly fire

    For now I am going to focus on the 38kHz.

    IR receiver:

    The RX is going to be 3 or 4 TSOP1838 (or PNA4602) IR 38KHz recievers. These have a built-in filter and pre amplifier so I do not need to make a darlinton pair. These will be in parallel, fed by a single resistor. It will act as an inverter. When hit the signal will go low. The RX's will be mounted 90 degrees to eachother for a full 360 degree coverage.

    The hit signal is sent to a mono stable 555 timer. This will be adjustable via potentiometer for between 1 and 5 seconds. This is the motor disable timer. Also, the output will trigger the hit/target LED.

    IR Gun:

    This is an easy one as well. This is nothing more than a 555 timer set at 38KHz with a Vishay TSLA6200 IRED on the output. The 6200 has a narrow 17 degree beam which compresses the light for long range targeting and should also allow a resonable cone of fire for the pilot. I will see if I can find something more intense and narrower in the future, but for now, this is what I have. The cool thing: our cameras see infrad red. YOU CAN SEE THEM SHOOT AT YOU AND SEE WHERE YOU ARE SHOOTING! It's like a tracer

    To fire, a hacked servo (I would simply use a motor wire from the circuit board) triggers the RESET pin on the 555 timer triggering the firing sequence. This servo signal also gets sent to the motor driver.

    Motor Driver:

    Perhaps the simplest part: a simple transistor. The ESC signal comesinto the Collector junction of an NPN transistor via a small resistor. The base is fed by the output of the IR receiver and the IR gun trigger. When either is active, the signal will be sent through the transistor, effectivley grounding it and shuts down the motor. Some ESCs disarm and need to re arm, so this might require a switch and spearate 555 timer that gives a neutral signal instead. I will need to experiment.

    Hit/Target system:

    Again, easy. This is simply and inverted LED pair. One LED is on an NPN transistor collector, the other is on a PNP transistor Emitter. Upon the hit register on the IR sensor, the transistors will switch, thus activating the Hit/target LEDs.

    I have the schematic drawn up. All I need to do is order the parts tongiht and build two test units. I will be trying this out on my breadboard first. Once perfected, I'll make some sample units.

    -Alex
    If it is broken, fix it. if it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.

    [url]videoaerialsystems.com[/url] - Performance video piloting

  5. #5
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    Range estimates

    The specs look like they're giving me a maximum of about 50 meters of range for the gun system. If I put the IRED inside a copper tube to narrow and compress the beam, I might be able to squeeze another 15m out of this. I can also over drive the IRED since it will not be on continuously and get a little more out of it.

    Sensitivity will be critical. I am thinking the IR sensor will need a potentiometer to adjust sensitivity to fire. Vishay is specing a 30K resistor, so perhaps a 50K pot and a 10K trickle resistor will be suffice.

    Originally my plan was to run this right from the airplane's BEC. However, the IRED can take 100mA and I plan to push every last bit out of it I can for increased targeting, so this should be easy for most BECs! No extra connections!

    I could also just run a uA7805 to the battery for power if needed.

    -Alex
    If it is broken, fix it. if it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.

    [url]videoaerialsystems.com[/url] - Performance video piloting

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by airbagit13 View Post
    Wooooooow, very cool Alex. Very very cool. I was wondering when someone was going to build one of these for the public.
    I do not plan to make this a commercial unit. This is a hobbyist thing. If there is significant demand, perhaps we can find someone with a PCB printer? Sander, maybe???

    Of course, my antennas were never supposed to be commercialized and look what happened...

    -Alex
    If it is broken, fix it. if it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.

    [url]videoaerialsystems.com[/url] - Performance video piloting

  7. #7
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    Here is a video of night Infrared dog fighting.

    They use infrared to "shoot each other down". Once you get a lock on someone , their throttle goes dead for 3 seconds. You can hear the locks with a distinct beep and the tail light will turn from green to red.




    Eddie

  8. #8
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    Very cool thing Alex.

    Not so sure I'm comfortable with the whole "shutting down the motor" bit though. I understand the reasons behind it, but it just seems risky.

    Wouldn't it be better to look into adding some kind of basic "counting" logic into it that only allows X number of activations per reset period? IE: You turn it on, and it will activate the LED a set number of times and then will need to be reset again before it can activate the LED again.

    To be safe you would have to limit the time period the LED is active. Maybe 1-2 seconds per activation, with a maximum of say, 30 activations. That way you get a limited number of "shots" before you need to land and "rearm" your plane. it would keep the idea of strategy and fire control in play without risking a crash due to ESC re-arming issues.

    Of course, I have no idea how complicated something like that would be. it might not be worth the effort. But this looks like a cool niche product for FPV that would ALSO work well with the AMA "keep it inside the field boundary" types. If you can make it compact and easy to add to an existing FPV platform, FPV dogfights could very well become major AMA events. It's a "no-brainer" sell, especially when the audience can watch from the pilot's perspective via a T.V. hookup!

    Can you imagine being at a major AMA event, and setting up two 52 inch screens just under the edge of a canopied stand area, while the pilots sit on the other side with antenna trackers dogfighting using IR beams that the crowd could see through the screens? FPV dog fighting would become THE big thing! I mean, who wants to screw around with stupid streamers when you can actually SHOOT at each other with no risk to any spectators?

    Alex, you are on to something BIG here, if you are willing to take it there. Just think of the possibilities.

  9. #9
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    Alex, Melih from Flytron did something similar, his first versions of SimpleOSD had a code for IR combat. Later there was also a hit-count and IR sensor for ground targets. Unfortunately, he later left this idea, removed the IR receiver from boards and make firmware to works with Frsky telemetry... Perhaps you may contact him to bring this idea back :-)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wearyman View Post
    Very cool thing Alex.

    Not so sure I'm comfortable with the whole "shutting down the motor" bit though. I understand the reasons behind it, but it just seems risky.

    Wouldn't it be better to look into adding some kind of basic "counting" logic into it that only allows X number of activations per reset period? IE: You turn it on, and it will activate the LED a set number of times and then will need to be reset again before it can activate the LED again.

    To be safe you would have to limit the time period the LED is active. Maybe 1-2 seconds per activation, with a maximum of say, 30 activations. That way you get a limited number of "shots" before you need to land and "rearm" your plane. it would keep the idea of strategy and fire control in play without risking a crash due to ESC re-arming issues.

    Of course, I have no idea how complicated something like that would be. it might not be worth the effort. But this looks like a cool niche product for FPV that would ALSO work well with the AMA "keep it inside the field boundary" types. If you can make it compact and easy to add to an existing FPV platform, FPV dogfights could very well become major AMA events. It's a "no-brainer" sell, especially when the audience can watch from the pilot's perspective via a T.V. hookup!
    If you know how to program a microcontroller, it's not too hard. I don't know how though. I bought a pic programmer a while ago and never even got to opening the box yet. I stink with computers.

    Hardware on the other hand I can do. This whole thing is analog. Adding features means adding more hardware. I want this to be simple. I would of course make the motor down time adjustable. For the hit counter, I was simply going to use some cheap dollar store pedometers. I'd just replace the mechanical mover with a transistor driver. Small, cheap, easy. The way I like it

    The sonic combat module was analog and it worked well. And I did that well before I even thought about FPV. I am bringing them to the SouthEastern meet to try some FPV dog fighting. If it works out well and if night flying goes well, I will be developing this.

    Anyone know where I can get a very small parabolic reflector? I'd like to compress the hit light beam to make the sensors more sensitive.

    -Alex
    If it is broken, fix it. if it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.

    [url]videoaerialsystems.com[/url] - Performance video piloting

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