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Thread: New guy, general FPV questions & some Discovery Pro questions

  1. #1
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    New guy, general FPV questions & some Discovery Pro questions

    Hi everyone!

    My intent is to get a Discovery Pro, UHF RC, the whole works, for long-range capable FPV (then add in a pint of courage and numerous barrels of practice). Didn’t want to clog up the stickied Pro thread with these general questions, but definitely guide me if I should be posting this elsewhere.

    I have tried to do a lot of reading, both here and elsewhere. These threads and others have been invaluable (although much of it is incomprehensible without the context of actually having an FPV quad in my hands!). Oliver’s Disco/FPV primer was great. The Blacksheep FAQ’s are also super. But I’m left with some remaining puzzlement.

    Also as background, I have flown RC planes and helis for decades but hung it all up about 12 years ago when we had kids. Now I have stepped back in, and wowee, it’s like a time warp with e-technology dreams suddenly becoming real! And quads, wow! I have a Spektrum DX9 transmitter for my recent RC electrics, and it’s a keeper but I’m not above getting a new Tx if it makes life easier for pick-up-and-go FPV.

    Questions:

    • I need help with considerations in using my Spektrum DX9 with 433MHz EzUHF, or just getting a new RC Tx (BTW I do have an Amateur Extra class license).
      • I see the video on modifying the EzUHF cable to change the Futuba connector to Spektrum. I had thought that trainer ports were universal between radio brands, since sim’s seem to plug-n-play. But the video implies that the ExUHF comes with a “Futaba plug”… is that for a Futaba-specific trainer port?
      • Does the Spectrum radio have any other challenges setting up for TBS quad copter use, for UHF module use, or for Naza use? Is it truly simpler to go Futaba, or is it really boiling down to personal preference without additional overhead for either radio?
      • Is the 14ch Futaba the only one that can run ExUHF off the same transmitter battery? Not having to charge one more battery is always a plus, although a minor plus I think.
      • Also I think the 14ch Futaba also has a data downlink on the quad’s battery voltage which is very useful… but if I want other readouts and am using the Core OSD or the more elaborate OSD, maybe this alone is not an argument for the Futaba?
      • Since I'm targeting EzUHF anyway, I imagine the EzUHF will be attached to the back of my intended transmitter (zip ties, double stick tape, something right?). If I use my DX9, which is used for other RC aircraft, wouldn’t I have to strap on the EzUHF each time I fly the Disco? I’m leaning toward a dedicated Disco transmitter, even if it’s just for this one convenience. Those other RC aircraft have their own pick-up-and-go requirement, since I fly them out of my back yard when I get a spare 15 minutes in the mornings (I love these small electrics!). So maybe dedicate RC Tx’s for each cause: one fun-fly RC planes, one Disco?

    • Goggles or LCD screen?
      • I'm very near-sighted and wear glasses. Plus, my reading vision is starting to go, so my glasses have bifocal lenses on the bottoms. Can FatSharks go over glasses? Or just wear without glasses, since the screens are right in front of my eyes?
      • What happens when the quad is back in sight and I want to fly it LOS? Flipping off goggles and donning glasses seems like a challenge.
      • LCD screen seems like a good approach given my eye correction, but does LCD lose some of the pilot’s ability to see some details because of the glare? Looks like FPV’ers always fly on bright cloudless days! I have no need for “immersion” (I get motion sick easily) (which is why I fly RC and not full-scale planes!), but I do want to see details for good flying, navigating, obstacle avoidance, etc. Other factor is that my neck gets crampy if I’m looking down at something constantly… does this argue for goggles more than LCD screen?

    • Ground station recording
      • It seems like a very good idea to record the video being received at the ground station / goggles / LCD screen, for “incident” retrieval purposes. I could see where I was at the time, and more accurately pinpoint where to find the quad. Plus, if I’m uplinking something like GPS coordinates, that would be a great help. Do people do that? Easy to plug in a recorder, or split the video-out from the VRx? I read somewhere that 2.8GHz video equipment is a little less easy to split out the signal than 5.8GHz, and I’m definitely going with 2.8GHz video (and 433MHz RC).

    • Ground station VRx antenna
      • Actually, on the topic of pick-up-and-go, I realize that ground stations aren’t nearly as pick-up’able, but I’m willing to use one to be able to run 2.8GHz video. But I really don’t want a yagi. Someone’s gonna knock that puppy over. Besides, I’m not aiming to set distance records; but I am interested in going out of LOS, just not WAY the heck out there. On the ground station, I’d prefer running Diversity with a Patch antenna for long range and a short circular polarized omni for short – good compromise?

    • FPV camera and hi-res GoPro
      • I do want to have a gimbaled GoPro for high resolution recording, plus an FPV camera for flying. I see lots of references to using a channel/switch to switch between the two, and that’s great. Can the TBS flight components (or additional components) select a picture-in-picture mode? I’m imagining ascending next to a tree or structure, directing the gimbal for good effect, but needing also to see the FPV camera view so I can maintain distance from the structure.
      • On that note, is using goggle accelerometers a highly recommended way of controlling gimbal pitch? I can see the positives – no need to run my finger along a slider while flying. But I can also see a negative – not wanting to hold my head still for the whole darned flight!
      • As for GoPro, I have a Hero 2, but I am thinking of getting a Hero 3 to dedicate to the quad, since I don’t want to be swapping it out just to shoot other video. But as a start, will 30fps on the Hero 2 be reasonable to use, or is it just a non-starter on a moving aircraft? Shaky video does drive me nuts. But sports footage at 1080p/30fps has been ok (skiing, following the dog in agility courses, etc.).


    That’s all the questions for now.


    Thanks in advance!

    Ken
    Elfin Forest, Calif., U.S.A.
    Last edited by RC Obsessed; 9th March 2014 at 04:51 PM. Reason: Highlighted the actual questions!

  2. #2
    Co-Pilot DiscoTuna's Avatar
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    Welcome, welcome - lets see if we can de-puzzle your puzzlements .

    • Spektrum - long and short of it is that you would be better off ditching it and getting a new controller - the general consensus is that it doesn't play nice with EzUHF. You don't want to have those doubts when you have your $2k+ bird in the sky. The Tarranis looks like an excellent solution (cheaper with better functionality than the Futaba) - you can also then get the EzUHF module (which is half the price of the strap on unit for other controllers including the futaba) - so win-win all around. Tarranis is also for sale from TBS - i have the Futaba 8FG and wish i had the Tarranis now - would have saved me a load of money for a more elegant (integrated EzUHF, single battery powered) solution.
    • Data down link on quad'd battery not needed - info is on the OSD.
    • If you can make goggles work then they are dramatically better than a screen - properly immersive, like an out of body experience - really, no exageration. Screen just doesn't cut it. I wear contact lenses. An alternative would be Cinemizers embedded within a ski mask. Then you can definitely wear glasses.
    • Switching to LOS (which is always do for a catch land) is a doddle. You will likely be flying GPS so all you need to do is fly it in near to you. Take your hands off the control - make a cup of T if you want to - then get your glasses on etc. The quad will simply stay put stock still till you are ready to bring it in LOS.
    • Not totally sure if immersion is likely to increase chance of motion sickness - may be better as you are focussing on just that vs the stable view around a screen - it is kind of like driving a car. May be best to try and experience it first if this is going to be a real issue.
    • GS recording - standard practice. Good idea. In about April the new Dom HD goggles are coming out and they have a recored built in. Otherwise a s$50 recorder from Hobby King will do the trick. I highly recommend the TBS ground station - that already splits and boosts the signal into 5 different streams (so you could also attach passenger goggles if you want for instance as well as a recorder). 2.4 or 5.8 - splitting is the same. 2.4 video is the way to go.
    • The TBS GS really is pick up and go - it is on 2.4 video
    • GS Rx antenna - the Yagi is really really small for 2.4. I went with a load of omnis originally and have moved to the Yagi and wish i hadn't wasted my money or time. Though you could start with an omni or have one as well for round about flying - though i use it once in 50 flights now. As regards distance - EzUHF is a distance enabling flight, but personally i think best for short flights as well as it increased reliability. You are going to need some kind of tripod or monopod in a backpack / stabilised somehow to attach your antenna to - so the Yagi is no more likely to get knocked over than any other antenna - it weighs practically nothing.
    • Diversity on the ground is really not necessary for a quad. Adds complication, pfaff of setup etc and you are unlikely to need it. A descent omni should get you all the range you can make around you, but the Yagi acts like an omni for a few hundred meters anyway.
    • PIP - not an option. Also not necassary. In your example you can see the distance through the GoPro. Also when in GPS mode it is so stable that it is a doddle to fly.
    • Headtracker (accelerometers in the goggles) for gimbal pitch is not standard practice and i expect you will get quite a jumpy pic as your head moves all the time without you even realising and this will get translated to the pic - particularly when you are on the FPV view and not aware of what you are doing to the camera. You can always add it later
    • Hero 2 as a starter will be more than adequate - the reduced weight and longer battery life of the 3 is desirable, but the videos you produce will all end up being downscaled to 1080/30 anyway. 1080/60 is the optimum way to shoot as you get very slightly better image when downscaled and it gives you silky smooth slow mode at 60. But really H2 is going to be more than fine if you want to delay that purchase.

  3. #3
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    Thank you! Great stuff.


    • Taranis and EzUHF 433MHz JR module - Very cool and slick solution! But this JR-style insertion module is 500mW... while 20% more power only translates to 11% more range (wait, do I have that right? Cobwebs), I think I'd like some insurance if I ever did do true long range flying. Even for shorter range, fly-around an architectural site kind of flight, the added insurance seems desirable. Maybe I get the Taranis with the 500mW module, and then if I ever wanted, I could get the external silver boxed 600mW EzUHF transmitter and external battery for the Taranis. Do you know if the Taranis RC Tx has a "Futaba" style training port for plug-and-play of that external EzUHF? Also, I don't see this RC Tx on the blacksheep site - is it new for him?
    • Does anyone use a backpack ground station? There's gotta be a ham who has done this, small yagi on a light aluminum mast anchored well into the frame of the backpack. The spotter is still vital, but one less task and maybe can have zoom binocs on a monopod to follow along.
    • As for switching between GoPro and FPV cameras: I'm still speculating based on zero experience, but the one scenario where GoPro view becomes unhelpful in flying is the downward view. But as you say, GPS mode will govern a vertical climb. Hey, does the Hero 2 allow live GoPro viewing, or only the Hero 3?


    Thanks,
    Ken

  4. #4
    Advanced Beginner Oliver Miami's Avatar
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    Hi Ken,

    Welcome to the Lab and FPV hobby. You won't be disapointed but be prepared for some furstrations and hurting your wallet...

    That being said, remenber that DiscoTuna is your friend !

    For the questions I know, check my remarks in red below:

    -------------------------------------------------------
    Hi everyone!

    My intent is to get a Discovery Pro, UHF RC, the whole works, for long-range capable FPV (then add in a pint of courage and numerous barrels of practice). Didn’t want to clog up the stickied Pro thread with these general questions, but definitely guide me if I should be posting this elsewhere.

    I have tried to do a lot of reading, both here and elsewhere. These threads and others have been invaluable (although much of it is incomprehensible without the context of actually having an FPV quad in my hands!). Oliver’s Disco/FPV primer was great. The Blacksheep FAQ’s are also super. But I’m left with some remaining puzzlement.
    Good, you did your homework and I'm glad I could help, feedbacks and remarks are welcome to improve those documents.

    Also as background, I have flown RC planes and helis for decades but hung it all up about 12 years ago when we had kids. Now I have stepped back in, and wowee, it’s like a time warp with e-technology dreams suddenly becoming real! And quads, wow! I have a Spektrum DX9 transmitter for my recent RC electrics, and it’s a keeper but I’m not above getting a new Tx if it makes life easier for pick-up-and-go FPV.

    Questions:

    • I need help with considerations in using my Spektrum DX9 with 433MHz EzUHF, or just getting a new RC Tx (BTW I do have an Amateur Extra class license).
      • I see the video on modifying the EzUHF cable to change the Futuba connector to Spektrum. I had thought that trainer ports were universal between radio brands, since sim’s seem to plug-n-play. But the video implies that the ExUHF comes with a “Futaba plug”… is that for a Futaba-specific trainer port?
      • Does the Spectrum radio have any other challenges setting up for TBS quad copter use, for UHF module use, or for Naza use? Is it truly simpler to go Futaba, or is it really boiling down to personal preference without additional overhead for either radio?
      • Is the 14ch Futaba the only one that can run ExUHF off the same transmitter battery? Not having to charge one more battery is always a plus, although a minor plus I think.
      • Also I think the 14ch Futaba also has a data downlink on the quad’s battery voltage which is very useful… but if I want other readouts and am using the Core OSD or the more elaborate OSD, maybe this alone is not an argument for the Futaba?
      • Since I'm targeting EzUHF anyway, I imagine the EzUHF will be attached to the back of my intended transmitter (zip ties, double stick tape, something right?). If I use my DX9, which is used for other RC aircraft, wouldn’t I have to strap on the EzUHF each time I fly the Disco? I’m leaning toward a dedicated Disco transmitter, even if it’s just for this one convenience. Those other RC aircraft have their own pick-up-and-go requirement, since I fly them out of my back yard when I get a spare 15 minutes in the mornings (I love these small electrics!). So maybe dedicate RC Tx’s for each cause: one fun-fly RC planes, one Disco?
      • I'm not a specialist on radios but you might want to consider getting a taranis and the JR module, even if there is a bit less power (500 instead of 600mW, it's plenty for a quad). Otherwise check the TBS Mod EzUHF, it runs on low voltage which is good if you don't want to carry an extra battery (eg you can use the 2S battery of your radio) http://team-blacksheep.com/products/prod:ezuhf_tx_tuned
    • Goggles or LCD screen?
      • I'm very near-sighted and wear glasses. Plus, my reading vision is starting to go, so my glasses have bifocal lenses on the bottoms. Can FatSharks go over glasses? Or just wear without glasses, since the screens are right in front of my eyes?
      • What happens when the quad is back in sight and I want to fly it LOS? Flipping off goggles and donning glasses seems like a challenge.
      • LCD screen seems like a good approach given my eye correction, but does LCD lose some of the pilot’s ability to see some details because of the glare? Looks like FPV’ers always fly on bright cloudless days! I have no need for “immersion” (I get motion sick easily) (which is why I fly RC and not full-scale planes!), but I do want to see details for good flying, navigating, obstacle avoidance, etc. Other factor is that my neck gets crampy if I’m looking down at something constantly… does this argue for goggles more than LCD screen?
      • I've been pro goggles since the beginning but I saw my friends flying on bright a big nice screen out of the hard Floridian sun and it was totally fine, maybe even better on image quality than the Dominator that tends to be dark on the corners. Usually these external monitors have some kind of top and side covers that unfold when opening the front screen protective cap. This things offers great contract and sun protection. But I'm keeping my goggles because I love light setup and I travel a lot with my gears. I don't want to carry extra monitor and battery. etc
    • Ground station recording
      • It seems like a very good idea to record the video being received at the ground station / goggles / LCD screen, for “incident” retrieval purposes. I could see where I was at the time, and more accurately pinpoint where to find the quad. Plus, if I’m uplinking something like GPS coordinates, that would be a great help. Do people do that? Easy to plug in a recorder, or split the video-out from the VRx? I read somewhere that 2.8GHz video equipment is a little less easy to split out the signal than 5.8GHz, and I’m definitely going with 2.8GHz video (and 433MHz RC).
      • Check the new ground station from TBS, with the 5.8 relay it's the best of both world http://team-blacksheep.com/products/prod:tbs_gs_2g4
    • Ground station VRx antenna
      • Actually, on the topic of pick-up-and-go, I realize that ground stations aren’t nearly as pick-up’able, but I’m willing to use one to be able to run 2.8GHz video. But I really don’t want a yagi. Someone’s gonna knock that puppy over. Besides, I’m not aiming to set distance records; but I am interested in going out of LOS, just not WAY the heck out there. On the ground station, I’d prefer running Diversity with a Patch antenna for long range and a short circular polarized omni for short – good compromise?
      • Why not but I usually fly in one particular direction and even directional antenna such as the TBS yagi still has descent short range back and side performance from what I heard (haven't tried yet)
    • FPV camera and hi-res GoPro
      • I do want to have a gimbaled GoPro for high resolution recording, plus an FPV camera for flying. I see lots of references to using a channel/switch to switch between the two, and that’s great. Can the TBS flight components (or additional components) select a picture-in-picture mode? I’m imagining ascending next to a tree or structure, directing the gimbal for good effect, but needing also to see the FPV camera view so I can maintain distance from the structure.
      • Do you mean a split screen, seing half and half from the GoPro and Pilot Cam ? I don't think so. But with a matter of practice and flight reconnaissance you should be able to get good proximity awarness.
      • On that note, is using goggle accelerometers a highly recommended way of controlling gimbal pitch? I can see the positives – no need to run my finger along a slider while flying. But I can also see a negative – not wanting to hold my head still for the whole darned flight!
      • As for GoPro, I have a Hero 2, but I am thinking of getting a Hero 3 to dedicate to the quad, since I don’t want to be swapping it out just to shoot other video. But as a start, will 30fps on the Hero 2 be reasonable to use, or is it just a non-starter on a moving aircraft? Shaky video does drive me nuts. But sports footage at 1080p/30fps has been ok (skiing, following the dog in agility courses, etc.).
      • Take a look on the TBS 100+ youtube videos and remember that most of them have been made with the good old GoPro2 so it's fine. I personally fly the GP2 on my disco and I'm very satisfied.


    That’s all the questions for now.


    Thanks in advance!

    Ken
    Elfin Forest, Calif., U.S.A.

  5. #5
    Co-Pilot DiscoTuna's Avatar
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    I built a model to allow you to calculate the differences in range between different setups: see here http://fpvlab.com/forums/showthread....or-diff-setups

    You are spot on with 11%, but what the model and theory shows is that 500 or 600 is really massively overkill for the range you can get on a quad battery (about 3-4km). 500mw would get you about 65km on good day and 600mw 72km - so you are very unlikely to need the full power from either transmitter.

    I thought TBS had the Tarranis in stock, but maybe not. Think there might be a shortage everywhere as people are cottoning on as to what a good deal they are. Not sure on the trainer port, but seriously I just don't think you are going to miss it. I have never had a dropped packet from my EzUHF or really come near it.

    Backpack GS's are the norm. Lots of info on here around them - have a look at the show us your GS thread. I have tried the anchoring thing, but the issue is that nothing is better than the spread of a tripod and if you have a good tripod the setup time is about the same.

    Not sure on GoPro2 - think so - it has the same port on the back as the GoPro3




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  6. #6
    Navigator Joe B's Avatar
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    I'll second the TBS Yagi. I was avoiding it for a few months when I first started in FPV, thinking if I ever ran one that I'd have to use it in a diversity setup, so I went with CP antennas for a while before eventually picking up a crosshair. I was disappointed with both and eventually bought the Yagi after reading so many good things here. Well, all I can say is I only wish I'd done it earlier. I could have saved so much money, and I was immediately breaking all of my old distance records. The Yagi is now my antenna of choice. As others have said, it basically works as an omni up close, too. I've easily flown far behind and hundreds of yards sideways from the main lobe with mine, and haven't found the need to switch back to my old CP omnis yet... and if I had to do it over, I'd probably save even more cash by just using the stock Lawmate whips, too.
    KX7G - ImpulseRC Alien RR5, TBS Discovery Pro, and too many 3D helis now collecting dust....

  7. #7
    Navigator rainmaker's Avatar
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    Subscribed!
    Got my gimbal parts and assembling them together while researching my way to upgrading my Rx/Tx/vTx and moving from 6 channels to at least 8

  8. #8
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    Hey, some random thoughts reading your questions.

    I have a Spectrum DX8 and a Taranis. Bottom of the 70cm band is a graveyard just about everywhere, and Dragon UHF (w/updated firmware) works with both of them beautifully via the training port. You'll probably want to ditch the awful rubber duckies UHF systems come with. I'm using a spare Diamond SRH320A on mine, which is 1/2 wavelength at 430MHz. Advantage to not having the transmitter in a module is largely due to RF radiation issues. Compared to a typical ragchew duty cycle on an HT, this is transmitting almost non-stop at a minimum of .5W right against some sensitive parts of your body, for what can be hours on end. I don't know anyone who would do that with an HT, so why do it with an RC transmitter?

    I love the Taranis because it's open source but the Spectrum feels much better to use (YMMV). Even with gimbal control, 9 channels is more than enough for a Disco Pro. But I moved to the Taranis for channels and programmability. (Damn thing still looks like a JR-style Transformer but for the price, it has no competition.)

    As for the battery issue, my transmitter has enough stuff (xyl would say junk) attached to it that having a separate LiPo makes sense. I have an upgraded battery for my Taranis but I wouldn't want to share it with everything else I use.

    Have fun and 73!

  9. #9
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    @Disco, thanks for the model. Makes sense, the bracketed performance doesn't get much of a gain. That said, if someone told me my 500mW module was shipping as 417.5mW, I'd feel a little less insured. But point made. It's more about the antenna, and I since I am all-in on a groundstation anyway, a little yagi can be added to the vision. @JoeB, thanks for the reinforcement.

    @Oliver, it's goggles all the way. Maybe I'll wear contacts. Or maybe not; does anyone use the diopter correction option on the Fatsharks? Is it worth doing if my moderate astigmatism doesn't get corrected?

    @Fiz, hmm I didn't think of RF and the jewels. Even with a shorter neck strap, we hold our Tx's in unfortunate positions. I never had an HT - my bro and I bought our 10W Kenwood 2m sorta-mobile rig and ran outta funds . So do you keep the UHF Tx on a long leash, maybe on the ground station?

    Here's one more for anyone: Is RTH fail-safe driven from the flight controller /Naza? The Dragon website said something about setting up the UHF Rx for some sort of position-hold failsafe, and that's NOT what I'm aiming for! If I have all this GPS tech installed in a copter, we're going to use it and give it a chance of coming home if I lose RC control! Anyway, I assume that the UHF Rx's are all in a position to do a hold, but that the flight controller is really the place for setting up RTH smarts... right?

    Thanks again all, my order is getting refined with every one of your posts.

    Ken

    EDIT: @Fiz, do the Dragon and EzUHF cover the same parts of 433? Also, is the Dragon 600mW? The Dragon homepage seemed to imply higher than competition, but I couldn't find specs on the Dragpn.
    Last edited by RC Obsessed; 12th March 2014 at 12:11 AM.

  10. #10
    Navigator Joe B's Avatar
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    FWIW I'm using the Fatshark diopters in my Dominators and have a mild astigmatism and pretty different strengths in each eye, but the diopters work great for me. I wanted to wear contacts at first for landing, but got used to just landing while wearing the goggles and do that the majority of the time now. That, and/or I'll use GPS mode while I whip off the goggles and put my glasses back on if the landing area is very small, etc. You could always go all out and get Zeiss Cinemizers (built-in diopters), too... I so want those!
    KX7G - ImpulseRC Alien RR5, TBS Discovery Pro, and too many 3D helis now collecting dust....

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