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nghfpvlab
10th April 2014, 07:47 PM
Over the past 7 years I have been asked several times why do we do business as we do, why don't we sell ready built models and aircrafts, and why do we not offer RTF solutions.


Here is the answer:


New Generation Hobbies was established as a Hobby Shop. As the name suggests we do things for hobby. Now, my vision of hobby does not include of buying an RTF quad, flying it for 2 minutes, crashing it into pieces then going and buying a new one. That is not hobby. That is extortion of parents...


Call me old fashioned, but for me making profit is not as important as having a kid (your kid or even my kid) get up from the couch beside the Xbox and in exchange to start build something real, build a real airplane, learn how to solder, learn how electricity works, what is a resistor, what is a propeller, what is an airfoil, why does an airplane fly - etc.


I was always beside my father when he built something. From a small frame to a garage or a gazebo. I learned how to use tools, how to create things with my own hand and how to make things work. That is priceless.


In todays world where nobody has time for anything - engaging your child in a common project like building a quad or an FPV airplane is the solution for you to connect with him and bring him out from the virtual Xbox world to the real virtuality.

e- chaser
10th April 2014, 07:56 PM
Yeah, uh, so can I get something ready-to-fly that can go about 10 miles away? I've never flown RC of FPV before, but I'm good at video games, so I should have no problem. I live on the 13th floor, planning on launching out my window, and flying it back in to land. What do you recommend?

Oh, btw, I want an HD image in my FPV goggles.

nghfpvlab
10th April 2014, 08:03 PM
Yeah, uh, so can I get something ready-to-fly that can go about 10 miles away? I've never flown RC of FPV before, but I'm good at video games, so I should have no problem. I live on the 13th floor, planning on launching out my window, and flying it back in to land. What do you recommend?

Oh, btw, I want an HD image in my FPV goggles.


I recommend to stay within line of sight and use a spotter and use an RC airfield.

ColoradoFlightMedic
11th April 2014, 05:26 AM
That's the attitude that makes this community so great! I cringe when I see every new RTF FPV model released... and the swarms of idiots they attract!

skquad
11th April 2014, 06:40 AM
Over the past 7 years I have been asked several times why do we do business as we do, why don't we sell ready built models and aircrafts, and why do we not offer RTF solutions.


Here is the answer:


New Generation Hobbies was established as a Hobby Shop. As the name suggests we do things for hobby. Now, my vision of hobby does not include of buying an RTF quad, flying it for 2 minutes, crashing it into pieces then going and buying a new one. That is not hobby. That is extortion of parents...


Call me old fashioned, but for me making profit is not as important as having a kid (your kid or even my kid) get up from the couch beside the Xbox and in exchange to start build something real, build a real airplane, learn how to solder, learn how electricity works, what is a resistor, what is a propeller, what is an airfoil, why does an airplane fly - etc.


I was always beside my father when he built something. From a small frame to a garage or a gazebo. I learned how to use tools, how to create things with my own hand and how to make things work. That is priceless.


In todays world where nobody has time for anything - engaging your child in a common project like building a quad or an FPV airplane is the solution for you to connect with him and bring him out from the virtual Xbox world to the real virtuality.

That's an admirable attitude but also a little elitist.

While I personally subscribe to your definition of hobby, I believe there is still a place for RTF models as well as people that only fly or drive or float these models. Everyone fiona there own pace to start and grow from. While I gain immense enjoyment and satisfaction odd putting it together myself not everyone does.

Using your argument all those that scratch build are more hobbyists than those that put there r tips together from ready made components. We're all part of the same hobby just coming in from different angles.

Channel 1
11th April 2014, 06:58 AM
Yeah, uh, so can I get something ready-to-fly that can go about 10 miles away? I've never flown RC of FPV before, but I'm good at video games, so I should have no problem. I live on the 13th floor, planning on launching out my window, and flying it back in to land. What do you recommend?

Fly it towards my home. ;-)

Wayne

Channel 1
11th April 2014, 07:20 AM
That's an admirable attitude but also a little elitist.

I agree and the last time I ran into that type of attitude was in a "hobby" shop in Plantation Fl known as Maniacs Hobby and it caused me to close my wallet and find another LHS.

While I have the experience to build from the ground up I am not in the mood to do so, as such I bought a RTF, actually a few RTF's and if I may say so my self I have learned to fly very aggressively and still avoid crashing, which is more than a lot of the elitists can say for their home built units and so called skills.

Actually when I see some of the "home built" units posted here and elsewhere I cringe because of the sloppy wiring, poorly designed mountings and the abundance of Velcro, ty-wraps, tape and rubber bands, many of these things are nothing then flying rotary lawn mowers seeking a place to fail over and crash and in reality should never have been allowed to leave the ground in the first place, the sad part is the owners don't know enough to understand what they don't know and yet they are real quick to look down their nose at someone who go's the RTF route.

It's pathetic, purely pathetic elitism.

Wayne

nghfpvlab
11th April 2014, 08:12 AM
I do not see why it can be both ways. The road to professionalism leads through a bumpy road of learning, studying, hands-on experience. Nobody was born a professional. Nobody became a professional after finishing a school a high school, collage or university. After getting the diploma there is always a lot to learn with hands on experience before one can be called a professional.


Once you got that experience, nobody say not to fly or use RTF. However the RTF always will need modifications to be at your level of expectations. If you do not have that learning experience behind you - how are you going to modify it?


Do not misunderstand this statement. It is not against you, it is working with you and for you. If you think this elitism - hey, that is only a positive thing. For the elite people who actually want to learn on how to build something.

JCLs
11th April 2014, 08:38 AM
I find discussion interesting even with the extremes. I started flying helies RTF, but was fixing them as fast as i could on my own. Flying for a minute or so crashing and repairing was a long learning curve because of my lack of hand-eye coordination. It comes with age! I moved on and my 3 year old 550 has an APS with RH, semi-symmetrical blades for 10 min flight times now and i moved to FOV with it last December. I am building a QAV 540 now.

I also got my ham license.

Been tempted to buy RTF but think I would be missing something. Seeing folks show up because a couple of us flying and pull out big RTF rigs and fire up is a bit scary. What frequencies are in use etc.

This is a huge new market with no regulation and anyone can join in. Illegal add ons are everywhere. More and more incidents hit the news. At some point I think we will be regulated and it will involve some minimal level of understanding.

Channel 1
11th April 2014, 09:11 AM
I do not see why it can be both ways. The road to professionalism leads through a bumpy road of learning, studying, hands-on experience. Nobody was born a professional. Nobody became a professional after finishing a school a high school, collage or university. After getting the diploma there is always a lot to learn with hands on experience before one can be called a professional.

And building ones craft doesn't guarantee nor equate into becoming a professional.


Once you got that experience, nobody say not to fly or use RTF. However the RTF always will need modifications to be at your level of expectations. If you do not have that learning experience behind you - how are you going to modify it?

It is known as a family of skills, a person may get into a particular hobby and actually bring along a set of skills that exceeds what is known by the so called professionals.

As an example I dare say a majority of modelers of little or no RF experience, yet that is the most important part of remote control, I base that statement on the number posts I have read discussing RF problems and solutions which are flat out incorrect but are accepted as gospel, why, because they are uttered by those of whom are considered to be experts.

Without realizing it these folks and those they fly around would be considerably safer if a properly designed and built RTF craft was deployed.

Again it goes back to the not knowing enough to know what one doesn't know.


Do not misunderstand this statement. It is not against you, it is working with you and for you.

That is only true if you actually have the knowledge to understand what I don't know and the ability as a trainer to fill those gaps of knowledge, if not it is a waste of my time and that I don't have time for.


If you think this elitism - hey, that is only a positive thing. For the elite people who actually want to learn on how to build something.

But not everyone has the desire to build something nor should they be required to do so and that is the market the RTF'ers fill.

Wayne

Lab Monkey
11th April 2014, 09:22 AM
"Call me old fashioned, but for me making profit is not as important as having a kid (your kid or even my kid) get up from the couch beside the Xbox and in exchange to start build something real, build a real airplane, learn how to solder, learn how electricity works, what is a resistor, what is a propeller, what is an airfoil, why does an airplane fly - etc."

+1 on this, there is a guy on you tube putting out "spoof" projects, Free electricity, perpetual motion machines etc, Reading through the comments below his video, someone challenged him, said he was wasting peoples time with His "easily disproved projects", the Guys response was "If it gets only 1 kid off his Butt & away from the Xbox/Tv/Internet & spending 2 hours Disproving the video, then it was worth it".

I grew up in the '60's & '70's, if you wanted a flying model then, you went to the LHS & bought a Kiel-Kraft kit, took it home to your bedroom & got high on the balsa cement & dope, slicing the ends of your fingers off with half a rusty razor blade until you had something that would (usually)crash on the first flight, So go get another & another, Until they did fly...great fun.

I don't have a problem with ARTF's ,Bought a few Myself when time is constrained, But they didn't give that same feeling of satisfaction when they took off for the first time as something you've toiled over for many happy hours.
For Me, Flying the Model, Be it fixed-wing, Heli or Multirotor, FPV or LOS, is a MUCH richer experience when I've had a major hand in the build.

BloomingtonFPV
11th April 2014, 09:37 AM
Here is an extreme example. On another thread someone was asking about how much battery would be required to fly the RTF long range airplane 50k. The answer was given, but it turns out that the user actually wanted to know how much battery would be required to fly 50k out and 50k back. Now, I don't know much about the person who asked the question, but my guess is that they had never flown more than 1k. Each kilometer is exponentially more difficult. Everything starts to matter- component placement, noisy components, even things like whether you fly in aided mode which can use more battery to drive the servos. Whether your battery is big enough is only one of about 100 questions that needs to be asked. I predict that this guy is going to lawn dart a $2000 airframe because the RTF wasn't set up properly, and they let the battery run down on their groundstation goggles. The point is that everyone needs to start small and close, and work their way up to long distance. RTF airframes short circuit this process because the knowledge is fragile- there is no flexible problem solving skill set that has been developed by starting small.

Here is the link:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=28029719&postcount=1010

Now, I could be wrong- this guy could be perfectly competent to set this up. But to pull off such a flight I believe that you need a full suite of measurement tools (RFExplorer, TX power meter), have really good soldering skills to do the shielded wires, and a lot of flight experience to know how not to panic when the goggles get noisy. It took Sentry many many flights to work his way up to 20miles away and he is really good. The issue I have is that we give the sense (especially with RTF planes) that it is only a matter of enough battery to get long range. Battery is the least of your worries and it is really, really hard to fly long range. If these guys didn't have the potential to crash and start a lipo fire, I wouldn't worry about it. But it is just one idiot flying into a crowded area (like the multirotor accident in Australia) that can lead to draconian laws being passed (like the current ban in Spain).

Based on this, my conclusion is that by making RTF planes a commodity we increase the risk of new laws regulating our hobby.