PDA

View Full Version : 400Q --> 465Q Conversion. Brushless Gimbal and 10" props while maintaining symmetry.



chatch
25th June 2013, 02:22 AM
Here are some new flat arms to add a bit to the size. I maintained perfect symmetry instead of haphazardly extending the arms along the same line. There should still be enough room to keep props out of view(the math is the same as for 400 size, just bigger numbers). I minimized the size for 10" propellers, but 9" will also work great.

The new size is exactly 465mm motor to motor, and it is still symmetrical. Make sure you install the arms flipped the right way(skewed a few degrees outwards), otherwise you will end up with a frame proportioned like a Flip FPV... and you don't want that :p

On top you can see the new 10" arm, compared to a normal 400 size 8" arm. This should yield 15-20 minute flight time. You can use your existing motors - just switch from 4S to 3S. It won't be very efficient if you run 1100kv on 10" props with 4S, you might actually smoke the motors if you run them super hard.

Check the link below for a screw-on gimbal to carry a Hero3. All frames already have a standardized accessory pattern that was used to secure the gimbal.

http://fpvlab.com/forums/showthread.php?17253-Gimbal

http://i.imgur.com/2C0V7zC.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/itIUkk0.jpg

Carbon
25th June 2013, 03:09 AM
The gimbal mounted looks sooo awesome. I want one..
But for now I'm stuck with a homemade tricopter and no gimbal! Nice quad you got there chatch, I always liked the look of flat arms like a FLIP quad.

Steezus
25th June 2013, 09:02 AM
Would you get more thrust on 3s, 2216, and 10 inch props than you would 4s, 2216, and 8 inch props?

chatch
25th June 2013, 11:55 AM
it will actually be the same thrust. you are losing 25% voltage and gaining 25% prop diameter at 10 inches.

terabyte
26th June 2013, 12:34 AM
900kv would be nice with 10inch and 4s eh???

terabyte
26th June 2013, 12:48 AM
Im interested in a set of longer arms and gimbal parts.

chatch
3rd July 2013, 11:37 PM
http://i.imgur.com/4I2ocPc.jpg

terabyte
3rd July 2013, 11:40 PM
awesome work. you thinking the silicone bobbins will be good enough to get rid of the nylon spacers on the flat arms?

chatch
4th July 2013, 12:35 AM
having more space between the dirty plates prevents the frame from twisting, but you can try for sure.

chatch
7th July 2013, 01:36 AM
http://i.imgur.com/yjnNeCB.jpg

terabyte
7th July 2013, 01:47 AM
chatch doing a clean build?!?!?! omg... wtf!!!

chatch
7th July 2013, 01:48 AM
bitch wait till i get the hot glue out!!!

terabyte
7th July 2013, 02:06 AM
and just like that is goes to sh1t.

postaL
7th July 2013, 11:40 AM
chatch isn't doing that... I am! pssh, no credit...

.Joel
15th July 2013, 01:16 AM
http://i.imgur.com/yjnNeCB.jpg

Oh that's sweet! Throw me one of them with the extended arms and a brushless gimbal on the front and i'll pry my wallet out of my ass cheeks for you.

helizrnew2me
25th July 2013, 08:34 PM
what about extended arms for the gaui setup?is it possible?

chatch
25th July 2013, 11:57 PM
it's possible but not worth the trouble right now. it would require re-angled slots. the flat arms are easy to "fix" by rotating the 4-hole pattern only a couple degrees to follow the symmetry.

That means brand new "dirty" plates to go along with the Gaui extension kit. At that point, I would rather do it the "correct" way and just redesign the entire quad to suit 10-12" propellers.

hawaiitaco
26th July 2013, 05:58 AM
subbed...looking good

austntexan
27th July 2013, 08:48 PM
what about extended arms for the gaui setup?is it possible?

Might be more trouble than they're worth if longer. The rear arms on the HT-FPV are LONG and Gaui style. Mine will need to be tweak/twisted straight some times. All those pieces...very easy for it to be slightly out when they're long like that...can easily throw everything off.

Just my 2 cents.

IBCrazy
27th July 2013, 10:40 PM
Chris - How can I get a set of these? I want to run my ADS400 with 9" props and this seems to be the perfect way to do it. My ADS 400 has the original 3-peice arms right now so I don't know if I need spacers or bushings.

-Alex

Derrick
27th July 2013, 11:10 PM
What is the sleeve that everyone is putting on over their wires? It looks like a nylon braid with some heat shrink.

A ways back in this thread someone mentioned that the HobbyKing stuff was crap, what is the preferred kind? any more details about how everyone is installing it?

chatch
27th July 2013, 11:35 PM
I'm just used to high quality cable sleeving for computer power supplies. To install, cut desired length, put matching shrink wrap over the ends to prevent fraying.

Derrick
27th July 2013, 11:38 PM
I found some called "Kobra Sleeving"... Think I will give this a try on my next build. I really like the look that it gives. I am assuming that when people build using this they forgo the use of bullet connectors, and just run straight from the motor to the ESC?

chatch
27th July 2013, 11:41 PM
Chris - How can I get a set of these? I want to run my ADS400 with 9" props and this seems to be the perfect way to do it. My ADS 400 has the original 3-peice arms right now so I don't know if I need spacers or bushings.

-Alex

hi, it's directly compatible so you just need the arms. I put needed hardware in orders for 4 arms.
I actually cross check the name on the order to see what frame the customer has. If they have gaui and buy 4 arms, regular or extended, I'll put the hardware in. This is a lot to assume so I should probably put a notice on the website page.

chatch
27th July 2013, 11:46 PM
I found some called "Kobra Sleeving"... Think I will give this a try on my next build. I really like the look that it gives. I am assuming that when people build using this they forgo the use of bullet connectors, and just run straight from the motor to the ESC?

yep, probably without bullet connectors. To judge the quality of the sleeving look how tight the weave is. If you can see the wires under the sleeve, it's "crap"

.Joel
30th July 2013, 02:48 AM
Interesting sleeving review here: http://www.overclock.net/t/929480/cable-sleeving-comparison
This stuff is meant to be alright based on that review: http://en.mdpc-x.com/mdpc-sleeve/sleeve.htm
Take the links for what they're worth, I haven't used any of the stuff listed.

c'mon chatch, i'm getting sore nuts beating them around waiting to order a 465Q w/ Gimbal.

Derrick
30th July 2013, 11:27 PM
Is there going to be a gimbal offering? I just assumed that I would order one from the link on the first page... or design my own :)

chatch
31st July 2013, 08:43 AM
there's a working gimbal on shapeways already but i'll have my own done in a few days.

Derrick
5th August 2013, 12:48 PM
So my kit arrived on Saturday, I test fit everything and then disassembled it again. The biggest thing that I seen was that the bolts going through the dirty plates and flat arms are not long enough with the heatshrink installed, and only marginally long enough with it off. The fit and finish of everything looks good other than that.


What motors do you recommend for 10" props? bare in mind that I live at 5,280 ft (~20% less dense air than at sea level). This is the main reason I went with the "long arm" version as I need the bigger props for my elevation. The normal rule of thumb that I follow is take the recommenced prop size and increase the diameter or pitch by 1. It seems that the magic number are motors in the 250Watt power range.

Here is what I wan't from this quad:
- Be able to flip and roll with ease
- carry GoPro3
- carry FPV gear (Not a full OSD, just super simple for voltage)
- I have a fair number of 3s 4000mAh packs and 3s 2000mAh packs (I would prefer to use these)
- I am a cheap B*****D, so the cheaper the better. (I'd like to keep it at/below $20/motor if possible)

I have been looking at the following options for motors, but can't really decide which would work best (over my budget/pain threshhold though).
NTM 2826 1200KV
sunnysky 2216 1250kv
T-Motor 2216-9 1100kV

terabyte
5th August 2013, 01:26 PM
ntm is not enough torque... i would say try the sunnysky with 9inch props for your conditions.
the Tmotor at your altitude you MIGHT be able to get 10inch... but the sunnysky are much cheaper...

Derrick
5th August 2013, 02:07 PM
So, should I shoot for something with a little lower kV? What power range should I be shooting for?

terabyte
5th August 2013, 02:50 PM
So, should I shoot for something with a little lower kV? What power range should I be shooting for?

Im not sure what power rating because the Tiger 1100 dont have published specs and the Sunnysky 1250 arent even rated for 4s. All of my experience is at sealevel so I cant speak from experience. I dont know what weird stuff happens when the air gets thin.

However the sunnysky are half the price, if they dont work for you on 9 inch props you can sell them to someone who can use them at lower altitude with 8 inch no problem.

Derrick
5th August 2013, 03:19 PM
I have the extended arms... so I can fit 10" props on there... power is a good way to look at things, because it is a measure of work. I can get 250watts out of a motor at any elevation (Electric that is ICs also suffer in performance here too), you just adjust the propeller size.

terabyte
5th August 2013, 03:34 PM
10 inch on either of those motors at sea level will make them poof. im not sure what it would do up there. I know there are people using the 9inch on the 1100 on tbs discovery quads... the tiger 1100 at your altitude with 10 inch props might be fine too. sorry i cant tell you for certain.

austntexan
6th August 2013, 03:49 PM
I'm on the road but I think my long arms have been delivered to VA. Really looking forward to putting them on. FWIW, I'm in Texas right now and it's friggin' hot as b*lls. I've got two quads with me, a HT FPV and the ADS400. Both have the Chatch motors but I've got 9" APCs on the HT-FPV and it's been running nice(temp wize) but put 8s on it and it gets toasty.

Ran my ADS at noon(with 8s) and it was very warm. This isn't a complaint but an observation really. I think these motors like 9s better, at least in the hotter climes. I've been flying the HT-FPV b*lls to the wall with 9s and it doesn't get too hot. I run 4S LiPos (2600-4000).

Looking forward to getting the 9s on the ADS. I'm wondering if the Sunny's would take the 8" props better, since they're slightly higher KV. Of course, I left those motors in VA!

I'm just loving the weather here right now. Been able to fly every day, take a break mid day to get out of the sun. Both quads are capturing some great footage.

Derrick
9th August 2013, 09:44 AM
10 inch on either of those motors at sea level will make them poof. im not sure what it would do up there. I know there are people using the 9inch on the 1100 on tbs discovery quads... the tiger 1100 at your altitude with 10 inch props might be fine too. sorry i cant tell you for certain.

Thank you for the information, I am in a very interesting situation. I currently have 4x of these:
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18115__Turnigy_Aerodrive_SK3_2826_1240kv_Brushle ss_Outrunner_Motor.html

They are only rated at 150Watts. The seemingly popular "Juz" motors (http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17345__NTM_Prop_Drive_Series_28_26A_1200kv_250w. html) are 250Watts. So it seems that the Turnigys are a little below the curve.

terabyte
9th August 2013, 10:15 AM
Thank you for the information, I am in a very interesting situation. I currently have 4x of these:
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18115__Turnigy_Aerodrive_SK3_2826_1240kv_Brushle ss_Outrunner_Motor.html

They are only rated at 150Watts. The seemingly popular "Juz" motors (http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17345__NTM_Prop_Drive_Series_28_26A_1200kv_250w. html) are 250Watts. So it seems that the Turnigys are a little below the curve.

Glad to help man.
honestly the Juz motors started to seem week to me after my initial learning curve. The 400q built up with a gopro and a 3300 is not exactly light. I would stay away from anything with less umph than a Juz motor.

Derrick
25th August 2013, 12:32 PM
Alright guys I need some help here. I picked what I thought would be the perfect motors to swing 10" props on a 3s battery... looks like I was wrong (maybe).

These are the motors that I bought:
http://www.rctimer.com/product_823.html
http://www.rctimer.com/syssite/home/shop/1/pictures/newsimg/1351092818.jpg

Here are the specs:
http://www.rctimer.com/syssite/home/shop/1/pictures/newsimg/1351092795.jpg

Here is my Quad:
3139031391313923139331394

I am using the acro naze 32 flight controller, RCTimer 30amp ESCs flashed with SimonK the frame is the ADS400Q with the extended G10 flat arms. ESCs are connected to the distribution board that came with the quad frame. The frame with 3s 4000mAh battery weighs in at 1400 grams (so it isn't that heavy compared to other builds I have seen).

On 10" props and a fully charged 3s 4000mAh I can't get more than a 6 inch hover... ie it does not have enough power to get out of ground effect. When I hooked up my watt meter it shows that I am only pulling 300 watts (12V and 25amps at WOT). This confirms that there is something going on... like the motors/ESCs aren't getting enough power or that the flight controller is limiting them.

Any Ideas? I really don't want to tear her apart but I need to do something.


Derrick

postaL
25th August 2013, 12:39 PM
Calibrate ESCs and min/max throttle?


Alright guys I need some help here. I picked what I thought would be the perfect motors to swing 10" props on a 3s battery... looks like I was wrong (maybe).

These are the motors that I bought:
http://www.rctimer.com/product_823.html
http://www.rctimer.com/syssite/home/shop/1/pictures/newsimg/1351092818.jpg

Here are the specs:
http://www.rctimer.com/syssite/home/shop/1/pictures/newsimg/1351092795.jpg

Here is my Quad:
3139031391313923139331394

I am using the acro naze 32 flight controller, RCTimer 30amp ESCs flashed with SimonK the frame is the ADS400Q with the extended G10 flat arms. ESCs are connected to the distribution board that came with the quad frame. The frame with 3s 4000mAh battery weighs in at 1400 grams (so it isn't that heavy compared to other builds I have seen).

On 10" props and a fully charged 3s 4000mAh I can't get more than a 6 inch hover... ie it does not have enough power to get out of ground effect. When I hooked up my watt meter it shows that I am only pulling 300 watts (12V and 25amps at WOT). This confirms that there is something going on... like the motors/ESCs aren't getting enough power or that the flight controller is limiting them.

Any Ideas? I really don't want to tear her apart but I need to do something.


Derrick

Derrick
25th August 2013, 12:43 PM
They are SimonK... do you have too?

chatch
25th August 2013, 12:53 PM
it should fly fine. 1100kv is good for 10" and 3S also. you calibrated the throttle range on the ESC? distro board is rated for 80 amps. is this your first build with Naze32? it could just be a multiwii config error with maxthrottle and minthrottle


They are SimonK... do you have too?

yes, unless you set the default throttle range in the code and then flash it. calibrate the esc like normal. if you want to do them all at once:

only plug in naze to computer
go to CLI
type "set mincommand=1900" then hit enter
type "set mincommand=1098" DONT HIT ENTER yet
plug in your copter
after the ESC beeps, hit enter

unplug everything and fly it

Derrick
25th August 2013, 01:12 PM
OK... I calibrated the ESCs, using the traditional method, plugging each into the throttle channel on the receiver individually. Lets just say that she is a completely different animal now. I can't believe that I overlooked this.

austntexan
28th August 2013, 11:22 AM
OK... I calibrated the ESCs, using the traditional method, plugging each into the throttle channel on the receiver individually. Lets just say that she is a completely different animal now. I can't believe that I overlooked this.

What RC receiver are you using?

Derrick
28th August 2013, 11:26 AM
I am running DragonLinkV2... I need to get some smaller props though, the 10's are just a little to much for these motors. I think that 9x4.5 will be the perfect size.

gnrc
28th August 2013, 03:38 PM
Btw any update on chatches version of the gimbal parts?

chatch
27th September 2013, 02:24 AM
sadly, no update. the mini quad and a huge volume of orders have kept me busy. I don't even have time to fly anymore :(

gnrc
27th September 2013, 04:38 AM
sadly, no update. the mini quad and a huge volume of orders have kept me busy. I don't even have time to fly anymore :(

Thats sad.
Should get better once rmrc takes part of the shipping shouldn't it?

chatch
27th September 2013, 08:58 AM
Maybe, maybe not. I took up some work for IBCrazy. Chimera motor mounts, ABS helical formers, etc. :)

Derrick
30th October 2013, 11:36 PM
it should fly fine. 1100kv is good for 10" and 3S also. you calibrated the throttle range on the ESC? distro board is rated for 80 amps. is this your first build with Naze32? it could just be a multiwii config error with maxthrottle and minthrottle



yes, unless you set the default throttle range in the code and then flash it. calibrate the esc like normal. if you want to do them all at once:

only plug in naze to computer
go to CLI
type "set mincommand=1900" then hit enter
type "set mincommand=1098" DONT HIT ENTER yet
plug in your copter
after the ESC beeps, hit enter

unplug everything and fly it

Alright, this worked like a charm... I do have a question though.

Why 1098us and 1900us? Isn't the full throttle range from 1000 to 2000us? Seems like you are shorting yourself a little stick resolution by doing it this way.

chatch
30th October 2013, 11:49 PM
1100 was some key value that i can't remember so 1098 is below the "analog error threshold" that triggers at 1100. i just ended up using 1098 and 1930 actually. now for 3D operation I can't even remember what I have, 1150-1850us on the ESC, and 1100-1900 in multiwii.

if you want to talk about shorting stick res, try to fly 3D(you get to use half the stick) on a futaba set up for AIRPLANES!!! I get about 10 clicks of throttle between "0" and full lol. when i'm doing low flying or proximity i'm usually bouncing between two throttle points fairly quickly to create an average between the two

Derrick
31st October 2013, 12:13 AM
Don't most transmitters give you 1024steps of resolution between low and high?

chatch
31st October 2013, 12:15 AM
yes, but i meant the physical clicking. on a heli transmitter you get an infinite amount of positions because the clicker is removed. I tried opening my TX but couldn't get inside. so it is stuck being clicky on the throttle.

Derrick
31st October 2013, 12:22 AM
yes, but i meant the physical clicking. on a heli transmitter you get an infinite amount of positions because the clicker is removed. I tried opening my TX but couldn't get inside. so it is stuck being clicky on the throttle.

That is very annoying... I modified a couple old radios that were clicky. If memory serves me correct, all that needed to be done was to flip the little leaf spring around so that it still provided a little friction but didn't engage the teeth on the gimbal.

Derrick
31st October 2013, 01:38 AM
Chatch,

What is your email? I have a response to your PM but your box is full... if I recall you said you get a ludicrous amount of PMs and it is not an efficient way to communicate.

chatch
31st October 2013, 02:23 AM
yeah it fills in an hour...